This platform exists for one purpose: to train Catholic husbands and fathers to suffer well, lead sacramentally, and bleed for their homes. That’s it.
This is not a theology debate forum or a liturgical boutique. This is not a place for pearl-clutching or passive-aggressive emotional sparring.
This piece was written for Catholic husbands and fathers who are starving for sacramental discipline, not for passive readers scrolling for tone approval.
If your comment doesn’t sharpen a man in his discipline, his Eucharistic formation, or his household leadership, it’s off-mission. And you do not warrant response.
You are free to disagree, not to derail.
The Latin Mass, Novus Ordo, and every Rite mean nothing if men aren’t bleeding, confessing, leading, and training. You want beautiful liturgy? Forge beautiful households. You want reverence? Start by kneeling in your own home.
I respect the sincerity of this post, & agree with some bits, but I disagree on the whole.
I grew up as a Byzantine Catholic & thus avoided(mostly) the liturgical wars waged in the West.
Here's the thing: My Father would PROSRATE himself after the reception of Communion. The chant, incense, iconography, the iconostasis, the whole gestalt smacked of the eternal/ the sublime yet the intimacy of Christ Jesus. Real cultic religion.
When the family went elsewhere for vacation, and the only Mass on offer was an NO Mass, it was viscerally upsetting as a 12 year old. Why are there women on the altar? Why is some hippie playing a guitar? Why are people taking Communion in the hand & wandering around aimlessly with the host? Why does dad have to correct the homily every time we drive back to the beach house? No hyperbole here. It was the casualness of the Mass that killed.
But attending TLMs growing up was a different story. There was a deep continuity of identity between the two rites. and I felt at home. While I never cared for latin per se as a young punk, the ritual breathed the same oxygen as the Byz: deep, reverential pure air.
We need a restoration of the mysticism & asceticism of our beloved Faith, and thus far, the Novus isn't delivering
You opened with the classic bait-and-buffer“I respect the sincerity”followed by total disagreement.
That’s posturing. Say what you mean and stand on it instead of hedging to disguise your perceptible concern with appearing civil than actually engaging the truth.
Your whole comment is a catalog of personal preferences. Fine, and none of it is doctrine.
You wrote about being disoriented at 12, about visceral reactions to the Ordinary Form, about nostalgia for Byzantine ritual. Also fine. That’s your story, but it’s not normative, and it’s not authoritative. You’re seemingly confusing emotional discomfort with liturgical deficiency and ironically, your experience proves the rule.
The Mass is not retail. It’s not a sensory product for you to consume and rate. It’s the Holy Sacrifice of Calvary (as you know) made present on every valid altar, regardless of language, chant, or incense.
Your comment is packed with aesthetic impressions, but it’s oddly silent on mortification, fasting, obedience, or submission to the Church’s authority. That’s telling.
Reverence is how you live, not the look of it. And the men defending the TLM say “reverence,” but they mean control, comfort, and cultural familiarity.
You want mysticism and asceticism? Good. Start fasting, go to Confession weekly, do penance, get back into the desert, and train your lungs to breathe it through sacrifice, not sentiment.
Nah. I won't back down from the "bait & butter" clause because I meant it.
Pharisaism is a disease in a lot of trad circles.
I know b/c I go to these parishes.
I gave the personal account since reflecting on how my father's piety has shaped me, b/c I had a son born the other day.
Anyways, I agree we need to recover a deep devotional life of prayer/ fasting etc . I just contend that the NO (as typically offered), doesn't inspire extra-liturgical piety. I think that's empirically certain.
Hey Emmanuel, you’re not the tough guy you think you are. What a dumbass you are to insist that "Francis" restricted the TLM for any other reason than that he hates Jesus Christ and His Church. And nice hissy fit in response to Joe Clarks's note. You pansy. Again, you're not the tough guy you think you are.
My thoughts exactly, the entire post felt supremely Protestant. As if the ceremony has no meaning, and the positions and actions of the priest have no true ramifications.
Interesting and heartfelt. I assist at a TLM Mass, but have noticed, especially of late, that it seems very insular and in many ways reminds me of the cliques of high school. I am on the same page as you are regarding Trump...I am greatly concerned about the idolizing I see happening. However, that happens in the NO parishes too. I actually decided to go to a NO parish for Palm Sunday, it was pretty bad. Very little reverence, discarded palms all over the sanctuary. People literally acting like they were at a baseball game and running around the sanctuary, so it was hard to pray and recollect. The best thing to do for spiritual health is to get off X...off for 2 yrs now, and life is better! It's challenging right now, so keep strong and keep praying 🙏
Teresa, thank you for your comment. This is so sensible I’m floored. You acknowledged the and dysfunction while focusing on your prayer, humility and self detachment.
You’re not trying to win, you’re trying to GROW in holiness. That’s good training and the actual fruit of good formation. I know more people like you exist in TLM communities and it’s sad that the most vocal ones don’t share your stance.
Yore exactly the kind of Catholic necessary in the fight.
This was timely. I have heard quite a few people express their superiority about which style of liturgy they go to. Your recommendation—that we remember the sacraments—is very important. I used to do disaster response work. We would wonder if mass would even be available at times. Priests couldn’t even get to our location. This stripped down the mass for me to its essence, to a joy that I could even participate. I try and remember that when my hubris creeps up.
We cannot run from the fact that we are Roman Catholic. It shows our allegiance to Peter, as opposed to the schismatic so called Orthodox. Our traditions come from Rome, before they are universalized. Also, Pope Francis, may God rest him, was indeed a heretic. No need to defend his bad moves. The tradition that you lean on to help others is the Traditional Catholic faith. Many Catholics go exclusively to the TLM, because they want the Traditional Catholic faith that you pepper your posts with. I think that you are maligning some Catholics, because perhaps you have been burned by some Catholics. I get it. I have been there too. My experience is that the NO community is more full of rot and decadence than the TLM community in my area. Also, my TLM community has brown people. I clean my TLM church with ladies from Mexico and a white lady too. I think the race factor doesn't make sense here. Many African decent people may not feel like Catholicism is for them in general, which is a travesty, but I have seen more people of color at my TLM than we're at the NO. NO liturgy is too squishy and cringy for hard working people is my perspective. Hard workers like the rigid TLM. God bless you!
I saw it was written for men. I believe you said women could read it as well. Pope Francis was indeed a heretic. I encourage you to look into it. I read Dr. Kwasniewski, he lays it out very well. I also saw somewhere that you had to wait a long time to baptize your child. That was an injustice, that I suspect would not have taken place in a TLM church, because the TLM priests take the sacraments seriously. I appreciate your writing, but I think your distaste with the TLM and TLM community is based on personal injury from the past. I pray you give the TLM another chance. It really is worth it.
Dr. Kwasniewski rejects the Second Vatican Council, which is heretical and incompatible with the dogma of the indefectibility of the doctrine of the Church. With all due respect, and to put it mildly, he is a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
You are greatly misled. There was nothing dogmatic about Vat2. I too reject it and it's modernist heresies. We aren't going to get holy by pandering to the world and saying blasphemies like all religions are paths to God. God help us! Seriously, give Dr. K a chance. He is great! God bless yall! You really don't have to be a modernist to be a good Catholic!
Adding my assent to this comment. Vatican II was the most unique of the Councils in that it was not proclaimed as dogmatic or binding on the faithful. It was proclaimed a “pastoral council”. Not one dogma was proclaimed or formulated.
Further, it was the first Council to invite in Protestants, Orthodox and Jewish prelates to observe, give feedback, and help formulate the working documents. The Council fathers, (not a few of whom had been previously censured and then invited back into the fold by the then-reigning pope) were of the mind that the Church should change to accommodate Protestants and “separated brethren”. The new order of the Mass was also formulated by prelate Annibale Bugnini, a known Freemason, on the back of a cocktail napkin, impromptu.
… I realize this is not common knowledge — I myself did not believe it until I researched it for myself.
I have respect for the POV of the author, as I can understand it — people are wounded, we tend to be tribal, we all have the weakness left over from Original Sin. But I am sad that he painted and entire group of people with a broad brush.
There was no broad brush. I didn’t attack tradition. I attacked pride masquerading as reverence and the spiritual rot that forms when the Mass becomes a performance piece rather than an offering.
If you read carefully, you’d see the essay was written to call men back into formation, not exile them. The core of what I do is to call men UP, not OUT.
But when men build identity around liturgical aesthetics instead of sacrificial obedience, they’ll take any critique as personal.
I’m not pressed about Vatican II or Bugnini or conspiracies, this piece is focused on the idols we form when we elevate the form over the fire. And the Church doesn’t need more theories. She needs soldiers.
If that cuts close to the bone, good. Then it needed to.
Yes, a pope can be a heretic. If he is an obstinate heretic, than he renders himself outside the church. Of course, any Catholic can be a heretic, and if they are obstinate in their error, they render themselves outside the church. I think I understand what you are saying, but it is important to call a spade a spade in these strange times, for those who don't know any better. Clarity is charity. Probably we agree with each other.
You’re so, so right. As an immigrant to the US who then converted to the Church, it’s so so frightening to me how the ‘elite’ supposed version of the Church in America is fixated on the top tier expression of faith as only smells, bells and perfect liturgy in Latin. What do we say to the Muslim in the Middle East who has Jesus appear to them in a dream and converts to Christianity? What do we say to the Bishop in Kenya who we see dancing to the altar? All derided as less faithful,
I have a lot more to say but for the sake of charity, I have to stop myself and concentrate on my own walk. I do have a suggestion for the elite adherents to the Latin mass- do as Jesus commanded and go and associate with the immigrant, the poor, the refugee. Those who are not just like you. Talk to them, serve them, listen to them. It truly changes your perspective and ameliorates your self-satisfaction you are doing everything ‘right’ when you are faced with true poverty, struggle, grief. It humbles you. It leaves not much time to muse over the particular points of liturgy. You do the best with what you have where you are, and then you go out and put your efforts to those who truly need it.
This topic gets people very hot, and I applaud anyone who peeks out and throws their name in the hat. We’ve got a serious lack of courage in this community, on top of a lack of charity.
You showed both today, and I’m grateful for your witness.
People forget Christ was a poor laborer, on the fringe His whole life. He’d be more at home in a Spanish spot in the hood than a Michelin star restaurant or suburban oasis with the newest Traeger grill.
The TLM community has become everything He preached against. History’s repeating itself.
I thank you for your courage Emmanuel. I just know you are showing up in your community with the truth of your walk with Christ and feel like you are walking alone sometimes- but people are watching you, and paying attention. There are many who don’t say a lot but learn quietly by observation. May we be faithful to model what Christ would want us to.
Perhaps the same thing that was said to those individuals for over a thousand years? It's very odd that a change that happened as recently as the 1960s is seen as supremely superior to the convert. What of all the converts through the centuries?
I don’t think the Vatican 2 Mass is supremely superior. I am happy to go to Latin mass or NO. I am worried about 2025 and the fixation of certain individuals on the Latin mass itself as the only acceptable form of worship.
Let's see if I can give you a take you haven't heard before, and I'll establish my credentials first so that you can hopefully see that I'm not speaking in bad faith. I am a husband and father of a young child. My wife and I prefer the TLM, which is available at a local shrine, but it's too hard with the little one to get over there (and it isn't a parish), so we attend NO regularly and believe it to be a legitimate form of the Mass.
I prefer the TLM to the NO, not because I think that Latin is itself "more important", but because the Mass itself is greater and richer at the TLM. I prefer TLM to the NO in the same way that I prefer the Byzantine and Maronite liturgies to the NO.
If the NO was a 1:1 translation of the TLM into English (as is commonly done for the other ancient liturgies I have mentioned) I would take no issue with it at all. But the amount of beauty cut away in the NO (the antiphons and additional prayers, both traditional and those directly from scripture) compared to the TLM fills me with sadness, and makes me wonder what might have been.
So, I don't have a "Westocentric" liturgy bias; instead, I favor all of the legitimate ancient liturgies equally.
I do what's best for my family, and try not to make anything in my life an idol; but, as you noted above, two things can be true at once. The NO can be a legitimate form of the Mass, while also being a "lesser" form of the Mass than the TLM (similar to how a "high" Mass is greater than a "low" Mass).
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this perspective.
This is actually a thoughtful comment. I can tell you’re discerning and serious about the faith, and I respect that. I also appreciate that you take your duties as a husband and father seriously. That matters.
That said, a few things:
Yes, attending the Novus Ordo regularly is acceptable, and it’s obedience. Whether someone “believes” it’s legitimate or not is irrelevant. It is the standard form of the Mass as decreed by the Vicar of Christ. Period.
You mentioned preferring the TLM because it’s “greater” and “richer.” That’s a personal opinion, not doctrine, and that opinion doesn’t override the fact that the Novus Ordo is the ordinary form of worship in the Church. We don’t go to Mass to get something that pleases our palate; we go to be formed, to worship God, and to receive our marching orders.
That’s why it’s called the Mass and not a service. You’re not a customer; you’re a soldier.
And that’s where the deeper issue emerges. So much of the TLM language, however well-meaning, centers on what it gives: beauty, silence, depth. But the Mass is not about what we get; it’s about what God requires. Beauty matters, yes. It orients us toward the divine. But if beauty becomes the foundation of your faith, then your faith is fragile. Beauty can inspire, but it cannot anchor.
You say the Novus Ordo “fills you with sadness.” Okay, fine and as a Catholic husband and father, your duty isn’t to dwell on what might have been but to remain rooted in what is. And what is, is Christ, truly present, in every valid Eucharist, regardless of your preferences.
Your preference for certain liturgies is ultimately secondary to your call to obedience and formation. It’s good that you’re guarding against idolatry, but your language still leans heavily in that direction. Keep your eyes open and check your posture.
One final point Ray and I say this as someone who studied Latin formally and speaks multiple languages: most Catholics today do not speak Latin fluently. And when you sit through Mass in a language you don’t understand, the experience shifts. My family is Spanish-speaking, and my processing time in Spanish Mass is slower than in English. Reverence is important, yes, but comprehension is too. If the beauty of the Latin Mass rests primarily on how it “feels,” while the actual content is linguistically opaque, we’re not talking about spiritual substance anymoremwe’re talking purely about aesthetic preference. That defeats the entire essence of the mass.
You may know the prayers by heart now, sure. But if a small shift in cadence or structure throws off the entire experience, that tells us something: this isn’t about deeper communion; it’s about familiarity with and preference for a certain style and that’s where the idol-making can quietly creep in.
This was a fair, measured comment. I appreciate your tone and the dialogue. Stay the course, but keep the compass set on obedience, not ambiance.
I appreciate your response! I will clarify something that didn't come out as clear as I intended in my original comment: when I called the TLM "richer and greater", I was specifically connecting it with my next paragraph, in which I described how the NO simply has less in it (both prayers from scripture and prayers from the tradition) than the TLM does (as well as compared to the other ancient liturgies). That wasn't an aesthetic judgement on my part, which is (as you properly note) a secondary consideration when considering what the liturgy is ultimately for.
And yes, you do make a good point about language; there are a few people of my acquaintance who fetishize Latin itself. For my part, if Mass celebrated in the Tridentine fashion were available in a straight up English translation, I would probably go to that and never feel a need to look back.
God bless! I was a bit more ready to fight when I read your inflammatory (haha) title, but overall your post is a good reminder for anyone who strays too far in a certain direction!
Yeah, well.. The problem that you are touching on here is much older than the Novus Ordo revolution. It goes back well before the Counter Reformation liturgical homogenization of Pius V’s Quo Primum that foisted the Roman Rite on the entire Western Church, to the radical papal totalitarian ur revolution in the Church, the Gregorian Reform that has distorted everything beyond all reason and recognition.
The problem we’re discussing is essentially bound up in the ideological ecclesiological assumptions of “Roman Catholicism” in which that the practices of the Roman Church are understood as normative for the entire Church universal, and that any deviations from her norms are exceptions haughtily granted, merely tolerated for the sake of pastoral expediency, like the Eastern rites are grudgingly allowed, as a sort of concession to lure those lousy Orthodox schismatics back into unity with and subjection to the Infallible Supreme Monarchical Roman Super Bishop.
That same Bishop of bishops who has the power to modify and overturn the received tradition organically evolved over centuries, who has in fact modified that tradition at the stroke of a pen dozens of times, who has utterly homogenized the Church’s culture wherever Rome has had complete sway, who then radically overturned that already homogenized but still more or less organically developed ancient tradition, the ancient Roman Rite imposed upon the whole Western Church by diktat, replacing it with a liturgy fabricated by a committee of crypto masonic modernists.
You say we must accept this radical totalitarian innovation that the cognoscenti in Rome incessantly foist upon us out of obedience. You say that the growing refusal to do so is rooted in Eurocentric truculence and racism. There is indeed a slight bit of truth in that, but that is not even close to being the essence of the rebellion.
I’ll speak for myself. I am a European American. I attend a Latin mass parish of about 500, a couple dozen of whom are African American. I haven’t spoken to any of them about their thoughts or feelings about all of this, but I am extremely glad they are with us. They are my brothers and sisters in Christ, I love them. We have a statue of Saint Martin de Porres outside our church, and if you polled us as to our favored papal candidate, Cardinal Sarah would win in a landslide. I don’t give a shit about race when it comes to the Faith, my attitude is that we are out to conquer the world for Christ, and that every human person is an icon of the Living God, no matter what color your skin is. If you come to worship with us, you are welcome no matter who are.
Also, as an aside, note that the Latin mass is exploding in Africa, too. It’s appeal is not merely Eurocentric, it has a spiritual gravity and appeal that transcends the specific cultural and historical context that produced it. The Novus Ordo is far more elitist, in that it was created by a bunch of academic “liturgists,” all of whom were Europeans. Suggesting that that insipid prefab construct is somehow less “European” than the ancient Roman Rite is simply nom sensical.
I have spent the bulk of my life doing the Novus Ordo shuffle, spiritually stagnant and stunted by the mediocrity of it all. When they cancelled Pascha in 2020, and then all Covid crazy on us that summer, putting actual crime scene tape across two of every three pews and insisting we wear masks and space six feet in the pews, I broke. I fled that satanic idiocy to my closest TLM parish, where maybe 10% of the parish masked, and nobody was afraid. I began hardcore water fasting, and embraced a serious rule of prayer. Five years later, my entire life has changed in many, many ways for the better. I am advancing spiritually in ways that I never knew possible.
I’m not saying that Traditionalist culture is perfect, or that many of us who embrace it aren’t assholes. We’re all sinners seeking grace. I am saying that the Novus Ordo is insipid, secularized pablum, an unacceptable deliberately engineered collapse of Catholic culture and practice. The Latin mass is infinitely better, and I will never abandon it as long as I draw breath. The hypocritical clericalist totalitarian elites who pretend to wield apostolic authority in Rome can all jump in a lake of fire. I am not abandoning the rites that express the Faith of my forefathers in Christ.
This ultimately has nothing to do with Europe, nothing to do with race. It is only about fidelity to Christ.
Charles, Thanks for taking the time to respond. Your passion is clear and parts of it are wildly misplaced.
What I read was: we have some Black people, we like a Black cardinal, TLM is growing in Africa, and I don’t see race so you must be wrong.
Do you understand how dismissive that is?
My premise here is not “TLM is so white”. It’s me, both Catholic and visibly black giving witness from lived fidelity. Your response wasn’t charity, instead you opted to override it with a checklist of proximity and spiritual colorblindness while throwing haymakers at anyone else in the way.
I’m curious just how intimately do you know those couple dozen “African Americans” (a clumsy unless they were actually born in Africa and immigrated here)? Do you know their stories? Their presence and probable silence isn’t your permission slip.
This is ultimately the exact posture that has alienated ethnic Catholics from so many traditionalist spaces, and frankly from institutional Catholicism at large. I made it a point to highlight that multiple groups are alienated, including my main audience here, husbands and fathers.
I’m not referencing numbers or exceptions, I’m pointing to the tone, posture, and the inability to listen, exercise self awareness, and be charitable. Instead it’s war. One must immediately defend the turf.
And then, while claiming it’s all about fidelity to Christ, you casually insult the Ordinary Form, the same the Mass promulgated by the Vicar of Christ, as insipid and demonic.
Is that fidelity? Because I see the far too common tribalism masquerading as piety.
I’m not here to judge your intent. That’s God’s business. But I can name the impact and your posture is precisely the kind of scorched-earth tribalism that forced the Church’s hand in restricting TLM.
My burning desire to live this faith fully transcends all aspects of my identity, but it does not erase it nor does it give you or anyone else license to do so whose formation has been culturally reinforced rather than stripped down and rebuilt under pressure.
Do you believe your experience is the rule? It’s not. It’s the exception that proves it.
And while you framed your response as neutral, you quietly tucked in that you’re a “European American” as if that fact doesn’t shape the entire lens you’re using to interpret and dismiss mine. That’s not neutral or objective, it’s the default pretending to be the standard.
Your final line “This has nothing to do with Europe or race, it’s only about Christ” is the equivalent of flipping the table and shouting “No it’s not!” after I’ve already calmly laid out the receipts.
It’s defensive theology and the rhetoric of someone who senses the sand shifting under their feet but won’t acknowledge the tremor. That’s for you to manage with your spiritual director, not with me, a trainer.
So grateful for your courage to write something like this. We’ve seen it first hand and I’ve come to recognize the restrictions are a severe mercy. May God purify us all.
I am not a father, and I don't have access to a TLM. I've been a catechist, church musician, snd 'liturgy director'. I've studied liturgy and have assisted in training lay-people. On rsre occasions I've advised priests.
I totally agree with you.
I noticed years ago that converts to Catholicism often never ceased to be protestant, only as Catholics they protest Catholicism and Catholics.
I've known more than one convert/family who doesn't attend Mass at all, because it's not the right kind.
It struck me as bizarre.
I love the Latin Mass, and chant, and love the ad orientem posture if ghe priest, but I do not think it is the only way. A reverent OF Mass can be lovely, too.
Right? It’s so easy to downplay the internet like it’s unserious. I used to be one of those people years ago.
Now? ha! Anyone who ignores this is kidding themselves. The internet is the most effective tool for creating radicals or revolutionaries. It’s undeniable. People don’t trust institutions anymore. They trust people with compelling that “look like” they do.
Also the American heresy you cite; I think how much of that is just the old puritanical mentality that never fully dues. It's the moral judgements like 'dancing is a sin' without ever questioning whether only certain forms are. It leads to questioning Vatican II because, after all, I've never personally been to a Novus Ordo Mass celebrates properly.
Ill start by saying i do not attend a TLM, but i do prefer latin hybrid novus ordo. I agree there is always bad actors and assholes, but I would say its weird to restrict the latin rite. should the pious be punished along with the obnoxious? if you become aware of a loud online minority of Novus Ordo Bros, will u call to restrict that form of mass?
Are we allowed to be proud of a traditional form of liturgy and think it will help others see the beauty of the Church?
At the end of the day People need culture we are not a vacuum or blank slate we will always need and make beauty, monuments, art, music, stories, philosophy so it might as well be made for God, focused on God.
We should be proud of what we have accomplished in the past, and be skeptical of adding anything and everything into the eurocentric mix. Asians and hispanics have their own specific Catholic Culture, they should be allowed as well as Eurocentric specific culture.
Very thought provoking post thank you for ur input
Nathan you’re one of the real ones. You’ve been here a while, so I’m going to respond with extra clarity and respect.
Your concern about punishing the pious is understandable, but that’s not what happened. What happened is what the Church always does when rot festers unaddressed: she cauterized it.
And it wasn’t the presence of bad actors that forced the hand but the refusal to correct them.
You’re absolutely right that we need culture, beauty, and art. That’s why Phase 4 exists. But when beauty becomes a mask for pride or a tool for exclusion, it stops being culture and starts becoming idolatry.
I know your cultural point came from a good place but we’ve got to stay vigilant. The moment we start “protecting” Eurocentric Catholicism like it’s the default or the purest form, we’re already halfway down a path that ends in soft racism cloaked in reverence.
The Church is universal. No culture sits on the throne.
I appreciated this perspective and have been slowly turned off by the TLM attendees over the past few years.
Not all but many are adhering to a “purer” form of Christianity as a reaction to the unmooring of American culture. But their faith is rooted in pharisitical (?) rigidity, purity spirals, aesthetics, and hardness of heart.
Initially when I learned about TLM I was all about the aesthetics and beauty of it; I still admire it. And even though I’m loathe to endure guitar masses, even if I attend NO masses that aren’t as reverent as my “preferences” dictate, the mass is still legitimate and ultimately I’m not there for a mystical art performance. I’m there to worship Christ and God, to keep them at the center of what is right and most important. It’s about the furthering and deepening of the relationship with our Lord, not the smells, bells, and trappings.
Thank you for engaging with the actual premise. You nailed it. The TLM itself isn’t the issue it’s the attendees clinging to it as if it’s the purest form of liturgy that becomes the problem.
That mindset is ideological, antithetical to Catholic teaching, and ultimately not forming or training men. It’s weakening them. That’s the real concern here.
I admire the lace, incense, and chant too but none of that takes precedence over the sacrifice of the Mass. Like you wrote, it’s not a mystical art performance or a curated emotional experience. We’re there for Christ, not to feel fulfilled.
This platform exists for one purpose: to train Catholic husbands and fathers to suffer well, lead sacramentally, and bleed for their homes. That’s it.
This is not a theology debate forum or a liturgical boutique. This is not a place for pearl-clutching or passive-aggressive emotional sparring.
This piece was written for Catholic husbands and fathers who are starving for sacramental discipline, not for passive readers scrolling for tone approval.
If your comment doesn’t sharpen a man in his discipline, his Eucharistic formation, or his household leadership, it’s off-mission. And you do not warrant response.
You are free to disagree, not to derail.
The Latin Mass, Novus Ordo, and every Rite mean nothing if men aren’t bleeding, confessing, leading, and training. You want beautiful liturgy? Forge beautiful households. You want reverence? Start by kneeling in your own home.
Train hard in silence or move on.
I respect the sincerity of this post, & agree with some bits, but I disagree on the whole.
I grew up as a Byzantine Catholic & thus avoided(mostly) the liturgical wars waged in the West.
Here's the thing: My Father would PROSRATE himself after the reception of Communion. The chant, incense, iconography, the iconostasis, the whole gestalt smacked of the eternal/ the sublime yet the intimacy of Christ Jesus. Real cultic religion.
When the family went elsewhere for vacation, and the only Mass on offer was an NO Mass, it was viscerally upsetting as a 12 year old. Why are there women on the altar? Why is some hippie playing a guitar? Why are people taking Communion in the hand & wandering around aimlessly with the host? Why does dad have to correct the homily every time we drive back to the beach house? No hyperbole here. It was the casualness of the Mass that killed.
But attending TLMs growing up was a different story. There was a deep continuity of identity between the two rites. and I felt at home. While I never cared for latin per se as a young punk, the ritual breathed the same oxygen as the Byz: deep, reverential pure air.
We need a restoration of the mysticism & asceticism of our beloved Faith, and thus far, the Novus isn't delivering
Joe,
Let’s just cut it and get honest.
You opened with the classic bait-and-buffer“I respect the sincerity”followed by total disagreement.
That’s posturing. Say what you mean and stand on it instead of hedging to disguise your perceptible concern with appearing civil than actually engaging the truth.
Your whole comment is a catalog of personal preferences. Fine, and none of it is doctrine.
You wrote about being disoriented at 12, about visceral reactions to the Ordinary Form, about nostalgia for Byzantine ritual. Also fine. That’s your story, but it’s not normative, and it’s not authoritative. You’re seemingly confusing emotional discomfort with liturgical deficiency and ironically, your experience proves the rule.
The Mass is not retail. It’s not a sensory product for you to consume and rate. It’s the Holy Sacrifice of Calvary (as you know) made present on every valid altar, regardless of language, chant, or incense.
Your comment is packed with aesthetic impressions, but it’s oddly silent on mortification, fasting, obedience, or submission to the Church’s authority. That’s telling.
Reverence is how you live, not the look of it. And the men defending the TLM say “reverence,” but they mean control, comfort, and cultural familiarity.
You want mysticism and asceticism? Good. Start fasting, go to Confession weekly, do penance, get back into the desert, and train your lungs to breathe it through sacrifice, not sentiment.
Nah. I won't back down from the "bait & butter" clause because I meant it.
Pharisaism is a disease in a lot of trad circles.
I know b/c I go to these parishes.
I gave the personal account since reflecting on how my father's piety has shaped me, b/c I had a son born the other day.
Anyways, I agree we need to recover a deep devotional life of prayer/ fasting etc . I just contend that the NO (as typically offered), doesn't inspire extra-liturgical piety. I think that's empirically certain.
The Mass is not retail. It’s not a sensory product for you to consume and rate.
Thank you for saying what needs to be said!
Hey Emmanuel, you’re not the tough guy you think you are. What a dumbass you are to insist that "Francis" restricted the TLM for any other reason than that he hates Jesus Christ and His Church. And nice hissy fit in response to Joe Clarks's note. You pansy. Again, you're not the tough guy you think you are.
Then you understood nothing.
Wallow in your tribalism if you want, then take a break from the outrage and go to confession.
Pride disguised as tradition is still pride, and pride is the oldest heresy in the book.
I don’t want your apologies. You don’t need to be here.
This space is for men with courage who train in holiness and live by what’s true, not by their aesthetic fantasies.
My thoughts exactly, the entire post felt supremely Protestant. As if the ceremony has no meaning, and the positions and actions of the priest have no true ramifications.
Interesting and heartfelt. I assist at a TLM Mass, but have noticed, especially of late, that it seems very insular and in many ways reminds me of the cliques of high school. I am on the same page as you are regarding Trump...I am greatly concerned about the idolizing I see happening. However, that happens in the NO parishes too. I actually decided to go to a NO parish for Palm Sunday, it was pretty bad. Very little reverence, discarded palms all over the sanctuary. People literally acting like they were at a baseball game and running around the sanctuary, so it was hard to pray and recollect. The best thing to do for spiritual health is to get off X...off for 2 yrs now, and life is better! It's challenging right now, so keep strong and keep praying 🙏
Teresa, thank you for your comment. This is so sensible I’m floored. You acknowledged the and dysfunction while focusing on your prayer, humility and self detachment.
You’re not trying to win, you’re trying to GROW in holiness. That’s good training and the actual fruit of good formation. I know more people like you exist in TLM communities and it’s sad that the most vocal ones don’t share your stance.
Yore exactly the kind of Catholic necessary in the fight.
This was timely. I have heard quite a few people express their superiority about which style of liturgy they go to. Your recommendation—that we remember the sacraments—is very important. I used to do disaster response work. We would wonder if mass would even be available at times. Priests couldn’t even get to our location. This stripped down the mass for me to its essence, to a joy that I could even participate. I try and remember that when my hubris creeps up.
Alex, this comment gave me chills.
This visual is sobering, truly. Imagine if there were a disaster; what would Catholics really do without their preferred forms?
I dream of a mass this stripped down, and it's why I enjoy Daily Mass so much, with its hyper-focus on the liturgy and the Eucharist.
You articulated something moving here. Thank you for this.
We cannot run from the fact that we are Roman Catholic. It shows our allegiance to Peter, as opposed to the schismatic so called Orthodox. Our traditions come from Rome, before they are universalized. Also, Pope Francis, may God rest him, was indeed a heretic. No need to defend his bad moves. The tradition that you lean on to help others is the Traditional Catholic faith. Many Catholics go exclusively to the TLM, because they want the Traditional Catholic faith that you pepper your posts with. I think that you are maligning some Catholics, because perhaps you have been burned by some Catholics. I get it. I have been there too. My experience is that the NO community is more full of rot and decadence than the TLM community in my area. Also, my TLM community has brown people. I clean my TLM church with ladies from Mexico and a white lady too. I think the race factor doesn't make sense here. Many African decent people may not feel like Catholicism is for them in general, which is a travesty, but I have seen more people of color at my TLM than we're at the NO. NO liturgy is too squishy and cringy for hard working people is my perspective. Hard workers like the rigid TLM. God bless you!
You disqualified yourself the moment you called Pope Francis a heretic.
I didn't write this for you. I wrote this for the men you just overlooked.
I saw it was written for men. I believe you said women could read it as well. Pope Francis was indeed a heretic. I encourage you to look into it. I read Dr. Kwasniewski, he lays it out very well. I also saw somewhere that you had to wait a long time to baptize your child. That was an injustice, that I suspect would not have taken place in a TLM church, because the TLM priests take the sacraments seriously. I appreciate your writing, but I think your distaste with the TLM and TLM community is based on personal injury from the past. I pray you give the TLM another chance. It really is worth it.
Dr. Kwasniewski rejects the Second Vatican Council, which is heretical and incompatible with the dogma of the indefectibility of the doctrine of the Church. With all due respect, and to put it mildly, he is a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
You are greatly misled. There was nothing dogmatic about Vat2. I too reject it and it's modernist heresies. We aren't going to get holy by pandering to the world and saying blasphemies like all religions are paths to God. God help us! Seriously, give Dr. K a chance. He is great! God bless yall! You really don't have to be a modernist to be a good Catholic!
Adding my assent to this comment. Vatican II was the most unique of the Councils in that it was not proclaimed as dogmatic or binding on the faithful. It was proclaimed a “pastoral council”. Not one dogma was proclaimed or formulated.
Further, it was the first Council to invite in Protestants, Orthodox and Jewish prelates to observe, give feedback, and help formulate the working documents. The Council fathers, (not a few of whom had been previously censured and then invited back into the fold by the then-reigning pope) were of the mind that the Church should change to accommodate Protestants and “separated brethren”. The new order of the Mass was also formulated by prelate Annibale Bugnini, a known Freemason, on the back of a cocktail napkin, impromptu.
… I realize this is not common knowledge — I myself did not believe it until I researched it for myself.
I have respect for the POV of the author, as I can understand it — people are wounded, we tend to be tribal, we all have the weakness left over from Original Sin. But I am sad that he painted and entire group of people with a broad brush.
Avey,
There was no broad brush. I didn’t attack tradition. I attacked pride masquerading as reverence and the spiritual rot that forms when the Mass becomes a performance piece rather than an offering.
If you read carefully, you’d see the essay was written to call men back into formation, not exile them. The core of what I do is to call men UP, not OUT.
But when men build identity around liturgical aesthetics instead of sacrificial obedience, they’ll take any critique as personal.
I’m not pressed about Vatican II or Bugnini or conspiracies, this piece is focused on the idols we form when we elevate the form over the fire. And the Church doesn’t need more theories. She needs soldiers.
If that cuts close to the bone, good. Then it needed to.
Moronic trad talking points.
The Pope can't be a heretic. However, various dissident cardinals and archbishops can be, as they cosplay as "Pope"
Yes, a pope can be a heretic. If he is an obstinate heretic, than he renders himself outside the church. Of course, any Catholic can be a heretic, and if they are obstinate in their error, they render themselves outside the church. I think I understand what you are saying, but it is important to call a spade a spade in these strange times, for those who don't know any better. Clarity is charity. Probably we agree with each other.
Pope Francis was a gift to us, as were the previous Popes. Growth means going outside our comfort zone.
I believe. I trust God's just judgment. God bless you!
Of course Bergoglio was a heretic. He wasn't even a Christian. He talked and acted like a freemasonic satanist. You're such a dumbass.
You’re so, so right. As an immigrant to the US who then converted to the Church, it’s so so frightening to me how the ‘elite’ supposed version of the Church in America is fixated on the top tier expression of faith as only smells, bells and perfect liturgy in Latin. What do we say to the Muslim in the Middle East who has Jesus appear to them in a dream and converts to Christianity? What do we say to the Bishop in Kenya who we see dancing to the altar? All derided as less faithful,
You nailed it, Sarah. This is what fidelity looks like witness rooted in reality and not performance. Thank you for putting it plainly.
I have a lot more to say but for the sake of charity, I have to stop myself and concentrate on my own walk. I do have a suggestion for the elite adherents to the Latin mass- do as Jesus commanded and go and associate with the immigrant, the poor, the refugee. Those who are not just like you. Talk to them, serve them, listen to them. It truly changes your perspective and ameliorates your self-satisfaction you are doing everything ‘right’ when you are faced with true poverty, struggle, grief. It humbles you. It leaves not much time to muse over the particular points of liturgy. You do the best with what you have where you are, and then you go out and put your efforts to those who truly need it.
Thanks for your comments today.
This topic gets people very hot, and I applaud anyone who peeks out and throws their name in the hat. We’ve got a serious lack of courage in this community, on top of a lack of charity.
You showed both today, and I’m grateful for your witness.
People forget Christ was a poor laborer, on the fringe His whole life. He’d be more at home in a Spanish spot in the hood than a Michelin star restaurant or suburban oasis with the newest Traeger grill.
The TLM community has become everything He preached against. History’s repeating itself.
I thank you for your courage Emmanuel. I just know you are showing up in your community with the truth of your walk with Christ and feel like you are walking alone sometimes- but people are watching you, and paying attention. There are many who don’t say a lot but learn quietly by observation. May we be faithful to model what Christ would want us to.
Perhaps the same thing that was said to those individuals for over a thousand years? It's very odd that a change that happened as recently as the 1960s is seen as supremely superior to the convert. What of all the converts through the centuries?
I don’t think the Vatican 2 Mass is supremely superior. I am happy to go to Latin mass or NO. I am worried about 2025 and the fixation of certain individuals on the Latin mass itself as the only acceptable form of worship.
Let's see if I can give you a take you haven't heard before, and I'll establish my credentials first so that you can hopefully see that I'm not speaking in bad faith. I am a husband and father of a young child. My wife and I prefer the TLM, which is available at a local shrine, but it's too hard with the little one to get over there (and it isn't a parish), so we attend NO regularly and believe it to be a legitimate form of the Mass.
I prefer the TLM to the NO, not because I think that Latin is itself "more important", but because the Mass itself is greater and richer at the TLM. I prefer TLM to the NO in the same way that I prefer the Byzantine and Maronite liturgies to the NO.
If the NO was a 1:1 translation of the TLM into English (as is commonly done for the other ancient liturgies I have mentioned) I would take no issue with it at all. But the amount of beauty cut away in the NO (the antiphons and additional prayers, both traditional and those directly from scripture) compared to the TLM fills me with sadness, and makes me wonder what might have been.
So, I don't have a "Westocentric" liturgy bias; instead, I favor all of the legitimate ancient liturgies equally.
I do what's best for my family, and try not to make anything in my life an idol; but, as you noted above, two things can be true at once. The NO can be a legitimate form of the Mass, while also being a "lesser" form of the Mass than the TLM (similar to how a "high" Mass is greater than a "low" Mass).
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this perspective.
Ray,
This is actually a thoughtful comment. I can tell you’re discerning and serious about the faith, and I respect that. I also appreciate that you take your duties as a husband and father seriously. That matters.
That said, a few things:
Yes, attending the Novus Ordo regularly is acceptable, and it’s obedience. Whether someone “believes” it’s legitimate or not is irrelevant. It is the standard form of the Mass as decreed by the Vicar of Christ. Period.
You mentioned preferring the TLM because it’s “greater” and “richer.” That’s a personal opinion, not doctrine, and that opinion doesn’t override the fact that the Novus Ordo is the ordinary form of worship in the Church. We don’t go to Mass to get something that pleases our palate; we go to be formed, to worship God, and to receive our marching orders.
That’s why it’s called the Mass and not a service. You’re not a customer; you’re a soldier.
And that’s where the deeper issue emerges. So much of the TLM language, however well-meaning, centers on what it gives: beauty, silence, depth. But the Mass is not about what we get; it’s about what God requires. Beauty matters, yes. It orients us toward the divine. But if beauty becomes the foundation of your faith, then your faith is fragile. Beauty can inspire, but it cannot anchor.
You say the Novus Ordo “fills you with sadness.” Okay, fine and as a Catholic husband and father, your duty isn’t to dwell on what might have been but to remain rooted in what is. And what is, is Christ, truly present, in every valid Eucharist, regardless of your preferences.
Your preference for certain liturgies is ultimately secondary to your call to obedience and formation. It’s good that you’re guarding against idolatry, but your language still leans heavily in that direction. Keep your eyes open and check your posture.
One final point Ray and I say this as someone who studied Latin formally and speaks multiple languages: most Catholics today do not speak Latin fluently. And when you sit through Mass in a language you don’t understand, the experience shifts. My family is Spanish-speaking, and my processing time in Spanish Mass is slower than in English. Reverence is important, yes, but comprehension is too. If the beauty of the Latin Mass rests primarily on how it “feels,” while the actual content is linguistically opaque, we’re not talking about spiritual substance anymoremwe’re talking purely about aesthetic preference. That defeats the entire essence of the mass.
You may know the prayers by heart now, sure. But if a small shift in cadence or structure throws off the entire experience, that tells us something: this isn’t about deeper communion; it’s about familiarity with and preference for a certain style and that’s where the idol-making can quietly creep in.
This was a fair, measured comment. I appreciate your tone and the dialogue. Stay the course, but keep the compass set on obedience, not ambiance.
I appreciate your response! I will clarify something that didn't come out as clear as I intended in my original comment: when I called the TLM "richer and greater", I was specifically connecting it with my next paragraph, in which I described how the NO simply has less in it (both prayers from scripture and prayers from the tradition) than the TLM does (as well as compared to the other ancient liturgies). That wasn't an aesthetic judgement on my part, which is (as you properly note) a secondary consideration when considering what the liturgy is ultimately for.
And yes, you do make a good point about language; there are a few people of my acquaintance who fetishize Latin itself. For my part, if Mass celebrated in the Tridentine fashion were available in a straight up English translation, I would probably go to that and never feel a need to look back.
God bless! I was a bit more ready to fight when I read your inflammatory (haha) title, but overall your post is a good reminder for anyone who strays too far in a certain direction!
Ray, this is good stuff.
Thanks for clarifying further I appreciate that, because I do want to dialogue about this.
That was honest. There’s mutual respect, no backpedaling, and no cheap shots. You’re a man actually trying to grow and train, not perform.
I respect that. You’re welcome here.
Yeah, well.. The problem that you are touching on here is much older than the Novus Ordo revolution. It goes back well before the Counter Reformation liturgical homogenization of Pius V’s Quo Primum that foisted the Roman Rite on the entire Western Church, to the radical papal totalitarian ur revolution in the Church, the Gregorian Reform that has distorted everything beyond all reason and recognition.
The problem we’re discussing is essentially bound up in the ideological ecclesiological assumptions of “Roman Catholicism” in which that the practices of the Roman Church are understood as normative for the entire Church universal, and that any deviations from her norms are exceptions haughtily granted, merely tolerated for the sake of pastoral expediency, like the Eastern rites are grudgingly allowed, as a sort of concession to lure those lousy Orthodox schismatics back into unity with and subjection to the Infallible Supreme Monarchical Roman Super Bishop.
That same Bishop of bishops who has the power to modify and overturn the received tradition organically evolved over centuries, who has in fact modified that tradition at the stroke of a pen dozens of times, who has utterly homogenized the Church’s culture wherever Rome has had complete sway, who then radically overturned that already homogenized but still more or less organically developed ancient tradition, the ancient Roman Rite imposed upon the whole Western Church by diktat, replacing it with a liturgy fabricated by a committee of crypto masonic modernists.
You say we must accept this radical totalitarian innovation that the cognoscenti in Rome incessantly foist upon us out of obedience. You say that the growing refusal to do so is rooted in Eurocentric truculence and racism. There is indeed a slight bit of truth in that, but that is not even close to being the essence of the rebellion.
I’ll speak for myself. I am a European American. I attend a Latin mass parish of about 500, a couple dozen of whom are African American. I haven’t spoken to any of them about their thoughts or feelings about all of this, but I am extremely glad they are with us. They are my brothers and sisters in Christ, I love them. We have a statue of Saint Martin de Porres outside our church, and if you polled us as to our favored papal candidate, Cardinal Sarah would win in a landslide. I don’t give a shit about race when it comes to the Faith, my attitude is that we are out to conquer the world for Christ, and that every human person is an icon of the Living God, no matter what color your skin is. If you come to worship with us, you are welcome no matter who are.
Also, as an aside, note that the Latin mass is exploding in Africa, too. It’s appeal is not merely Eurocentric, it has a spiritual gravity and appeal that transcends the specific cultural and historical context that produced it. The Novus Ordo is far more elitist, in that it was created by a bunch of academic “liturgists,” all of whom were Europeans. Suggesting that that insipid prefab construct is somehow less “European” than the ancient Roman Rite is simply nom sensical.
I have spent the bulk of my life doing the Novus Ordo shuffle, spiritually stagnant and stunted by the mediocrity of it all. When they cancelled Pascha in 2020, and then all Covid crazy on us that summer, putting actual crime scene tape across two of every three pews and insisting we wear masks and space six feet in the pews, I broke. I fled that satanic idiocy to my closest TLM parish, where maybe 10% of the parish masked, and nobody was afraid. I began hardcore water fasting, and embraced a serious rule of prayer. Five years later, my entire life has changed in many, many ways for the better. I am advancing spiritually in ways that I never knew possible.
I’m not saying that Traditionalist culture is perfect, or that many of us who embrace it aren’t assholes. We’re all sinners seeking grace. I am saying that the Novus Ordo is insipid, secularized pablum, an unacceptable deliberately engineered collapse of Catholic culture and practice. The Latin mass is infinitely better, and I will never abandon it as long as I draw breath. The hypocritical clericalist totalitarian elites who pretend to wield apostolic authority in Rome can all jump in a lake of fire. I am not abandoning the rites that express the Faith of my forefathers in Christ.
This ultimately has nothing to do with Europe, nothing to do with race. It is only about fidelity to Christ.
Charles, Thanks for taking the time to respond. Your passion is clear and parts of it are wildly misplaced.
What I read was: we have some Black people, we like a Black cardinal, TLM is growing in Africa, and I don’t see race so you must be wrong.
Do you understand how dismissive that is?
My premise here is not “TLM is so white”. It’s me, both Catholic and visibly black giving witness from lived fidelity. Your response wasn’t charity, instead you opted to override it with a checklist of proximity and spiritual colorblindness while throwing haymakers at anyone else in the way.
I’m curious just how intimately do you know those couple dozen “African Americans” (a clumsy unless they were actually born in Africa and immigrated here)? Do you know their stories? Their presence and probable silence isn’t your permission slip.
This is ultimately the exact posture that has alienated ethnic Catholics from so many traditionalist spaces, and frankly from institutional Catholicism at large. I made it a point to highlight that multiple groups are alienated, including my main audience here, husbands and fathers.
I’m not referencing numbers or exceptions, I’m pointing to the tone, posture, and the inability to listen, exercise self awareness, and be charitable. Instead it’s war. One must immediately defend the turf.
And then, while claiming it’s all about fidelity to Christ, you casually insult the Ordinary Form, the same the Mass promulgated by the Vicar of Christ, as insipid and demonic.
Is that fidelity? Because I see the far too common tribalism masquerading as piety.
I’m not here to judge your intent. That’s God’s business. But I can name the impact and your posture is precisely the kind of scorched-earth tribalism that forced the Church’s hand in restricting TLM.
My burning desire to live this faith fully transcends all aspects of my identity, but it does not erase it nor does it give you or anyone else license to do so whose formation has been culturally reinforced rather than stripped down and rebuilt under pressure.
Do you believe your experience is the rule? It’s not. It’s the exception that proves it.
And while you framed your response as neutral, you quietly tucked in that you’re a “European American” as if that fact doesn’t shape the entire lens you’re using to interpret and dismiss mine. That’s not neutral or objective, it’s the default pretending to be the standard.
Your final line “This has nothing to do with Europe or race, it’s only about Christ” is the equivalent of flipping the table and shouting “No it’s not!” after I’ve already calmly laid out the receipts.
It’s defensive theology and the rhetoric of someone who senses the sand shifting under their feet but won’t acknowledge the tremor. That’s for you to manage with your spiritual director, not with me, a trainer.
So grateful for your courage to write something like this. We’ve seen it first hand and I’ve come to recognize the restrictions are a severe mercy. May God purify us all.
Thank you for this Angie. I know you get it. You’re a testament of real discernment and formation
I am not a father, and I don't have access to a TLM. I've been a catechist, church musician, snd 'liturgy director'. I've studied liturgy and have assisted in training lay-people. On rsre occasions I've advised priests.
I totally agree with you.
I noticed years ago that converts to Catholicism often never ceased to be protestant, only as Catholics they protest Catholicism and Catholics.
I've known more than one convert/family who doesn't attend Mass at all, because it's not the right kind.
It struck me as bizarre.
I love the Latin Mass, and chant, and love the ad orientem posture if ghe priest, but I do not think it is the only way. A reverent OF Mass can be lovely, too.
"The internet is a real place now and it’s where ideologies metastasize."
That's a thought & a half. Something for me to think about.
Right? It’s so easy to downplay the internet like it’s unserious. I used to be one of those people years ago.
Now? ha! Anyone who ignores this is kidding themselves. The internet is the most effective tool for creating radicals or revolutionaries. It’s undeniable. People don’t trust institutions anymore. They trust people with compelling that “look like” they do.
Also the American heresy you cite; I think how much of that is just the old puritanical mentality that never fully dues. It's the moral judgements like 'dancing is a sin' without ever questioning whether only certain forms are. It leads to questioning Vatican II because, after all, I've never personally been to a Novus Ordo Mass celebrates properly.
Ill start by saying i do not attend a TLM, but i do prefer latin hybrid novus ordo. I agree there is always bad actors and assholes, but I would say its weird to restrict the latin rite. should the pious be punished along with the obnoxious? if you become aware of a loud online minority of Novus Ordo Bros, will u call to restrict that form of mass?
Are we allowed to be proud of a traditional form of liturgy and think it will help others see the beauty of the Church?
At the end of the day People need culture we are not a vacuum or blank slate we will always need and make beauty, monuments, art, music, stories, philosophy so it might as well be made for God, focused on God.
We should be proud of what we have accomplished in the past, and be skeptical of adding anything and everything into the eurocentric mix. Asians and hispanics have their own specific Catholic Culture, they should be allowed as well as Eurocentric specific culture.
Very thought provoking post thank you for ur input
Nathan you’re one of the real ones. You’ve been here a while, so I’m going to respond with extra clarity and respect.
Your concern about punishing the pious is understandable, but that’s not what happened. What happened is what the Church always does when rot festers unaddressed: she cauterized it.
And it wasn’t the presence of bad actors that forced the hand but the refusal to correct them.
You’re absolutely right that we need culture, beauty, and art. That’s why Phase 4 exists. But when beauty becomes a mask for pride or a tool for exclusion, it stops being culture and starts becoming idolatry.
I know your cultural point came from a good place but we’ve got to stay vigilant. The moment we start “protecting” Eurocentric Catholicism like it’s the default or the purest form, we’re already halfway down a path that ends in soft racism cloaked in reverence.
The Church is universal. No culture sits on the throne.
Good comment.
I appreciated this perspective and have been slowly turned off by the TLM attendees over the past few years.
Not all but many are adhering to a “purer” form of Christianity as a reaction to the unmooring of American culture. But their faith is rooted in pharisitical (?) rigidity, purity spirals, aesthetics, and hardness of heart.
Initially when I learned about TLM I was all about the aesthetics and beauty of it; I still admire it. And even though I’m loathe to endure guitar masses, even if I attend NO masses that aren’t as reverent as my “preferences” dictate, the mass is still legitimate and ultimately I’m not there for a mystical art performance. I’m there to worship Christ and God, to keep them at the center of what is right and most important. It’s about the furthering and deepening of the relationship with our Lord, not the smells, bells, and trappings.
Rachel,
Thank you for engaging with the actual premise. You nailed it. The TLM itself isn’t the issue it’s the attendees clinging to it as if it’s the purest form of liturgy that becomes the problem.
That mindset is ideological, antithetical to Catholic teaching, and ultimately not forming or training men. It’s weakening them. That’s the real concern here.
I admire the lace, incense, and chant too but none of that takes precedence over the sacrifice of the Mass. Like you wrote, it’s not a mystical art performance or a curated emotional experience. We’re there for Christ, not to feel fulfilled.
You get it. Thank you.
You nailed it. It’s emotionalism at its root.
North Africa and The Holy Land were Roman at the time of Christ and the early Church.
I don’t go to the TLM but garbage polemics like this one sure make me want to